[FRIDAY] Ljubljana Fridays

[Adam Trzcinski]

I'll try my very best to remain procedural, if I fail... you can blame me

[Mirza Ibrahimovic]

[Mirza Ibrahimovic]

Guys, feedback on the Friday:


LJUBLJANA/LJLJ:
Phill, thx for the cooperation on Ljubljana on approach and later on outbound with the intersection take off etc. But please familiarize just a bit more with the airport and VOR names. I know it is start, no hard feelings, but some times there goes looong time before you react. Then I also hear that you are on TS in the back, maybe you joke too much and don't hear the traffic. You seemed some times not focused. Maybe connection I don't know, I only write what I experience, with no hard feelings plz!


PORTOROZ/LJPZ:
Adam as promised, details and feedback

ARRIVAL VIA ILB/PZ:
The arrival was excellent, all well, you asked me to report the stuff etc, not to go into details, later I reported on final and got the clr. Could not be much better for a first time!

FINAL-APRON:
But caution when having more planes larger then small GA, as TWYs A, C are 7,5 m wide and only for Cessnas and Pipers! Meaning you only have twy B to be used by all larger, so don't block the airport as you was about to. Majority of LJPZ tfc users have updated sceneries, where it is not default wide twy, but a narrov twy A and C!

I propose on inbound traffic to keep the departing traffic on stand and let the inbound one vaccate and then move the departing traffic towards twy B. Or as you did, letting the departing traffic enter rwy 15, while inbound traffic holds before B from the 15 backtrack to B.

But then again, caution giving rwy 15 for dep, as there is no turn around pad, so there is only 30 m to make the 180* turn on, enough for ATR-72 due to narrow wheelbase, but not for Dash-8, as the wheelbase is much wider due to main gear mounted under the engines. And second problem, as ATR-72 is prety lazy aircraft on acceleration and has it hard getting it self up and completing the turn to the left to avoid the high terrain crossing the extension of the centerline from left to right, rwy 33 is given due to that too.

So you both avoid the turn around aspect, as 33 has a turn around pad since summer 2011 and the routes by JAT ATR-72, but also the terrain aspect, as the SID is easier completed over the sea.

So in brief, also according to much video documentation, Portoroz is mostly practiced to be landing runway 15 and take off runway 33, when the wind doesn't exceed 10 kts, like in Sarajevo. Of course with smaller planes it is a other story. And you can also see in the Youtube videos, when the JAT ATR-72 tries to make a take off from 33, that it really strugles to make it, and the same with landing 15, as the wind is maybe not in the favour, so the plane is even lazier. But its anw better then make him land on 33 with displaced thr and thereby only LDA 1000 m.

DEPARTURE:
Giving the clearance on departure is easy, but you must also follow the plane with no radar, as you are procedural. Ljubljana Radar only sees Portoroz traffic on a primary radar as I am informed, so you have no labels etc, and the traffic can interfere in signal with crossing traffic entering or leaving Slovenia over that area.

Therefore once you give take of clearance, ask some information from the pilot, especially if you have other planes, as you don't see them. So you can ask pilot to report inbound ROTAR on track 249 (meaning after the last right turn on ROTAR 1K SID) or if it is a ILB 1K SID and you have inbound traffic from ILB the other way, ask outbound pilot to use max. climb rate, cross PZ at 5000 ft for separation (inbound traffic crosses it at 2700 as you know, so I should be above for separation) and report leaving PZ for ILB. Or even hold inbound traffic at ILB and let outbound traffic fly towards ILB or maybe leave PZ dct for DOL or smth else for separation. Or the other way, keep outbound on ground and let inbound come down, depending of the flow. But it can be combined in both directions, if separations apply

So you must keep the traffic separated all time, by reports and not by eyes.

On my weekly Wednesday Portoroz sessions, I had up to 5 planes at once, 2 inbound behind each other, so when one is on final 15, next is inbound PZ and they see each other and are separated both vertical and horisontal. Combined with that, a other plane maybe departed 15 before and has crossed it at 5000 ft and is heading contra flow of the inbound to PZ towards ILB, And a 4th is entering the procedure over ILB, while a 5th is maybe asking for clearance. Sounds as a mess, maybe not described well, but all went well

Important to have all the factors in mind. In the start it was hard, but you find a rhythm, as long you give traffic gradual descends and climbs and thereby have the vertical separation all the time combined with some horizontal


RADAR/LJLA:
FLs:
Regarding your question for FLs:
Slovenia is RVSM airspace with eastbound (hereby also NE and SE) traffic on ODD FLs and westbound (hereby also SW and NW) on even FLs.

So it remains for Croatia, Hungary and Austria.

But traffic entering Italy must enter their airspace according to their AIP and airway classification, where majority of southbound airways are ODD FLs and northbound are EVEN FLs.

And to make it easy, we have agreed with Milano/Padova, that all traffic entering their airspace for southbound heading (meaning hdg 265 is also southbound heading as it is 5* to the south), they shall before entering their airspace be assigned ODD FL by us (LDZO/LJLA).

And in contra direction, since Italy northbound is EVEN and we eastbound are ODD, we change the FL to the northeastbound traffic entering our airspace our selves, but often they do it too.

So briefly, all surrounding countries but Italy: East = ODD FL, West = EVEN FL. And Italy: South = ODD FL, North = EVEN FL. We change the FL to Italian standard before handoff.


Hope it was at your help.

[Adam Trzcinski]

We are trying to partially revive this, Philipp is doing most of his CTR training on Friday and I am there as well most of the time.
Join us with LJLJ_APP or _TWR if interested!

[Filip Markoski]

I would try to join, because our vACC had the same day as his online day. Confirm time stay the same?

[Adam Trzcinski]

Yes, roughly 1800-2100z on most days, 17-20z come summer.